Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
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Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
Seeing as how nobody took it this is an excellent time to revamp it before someone does. I am not overly happy with the tree and I'll admit it was a tad rushed. I'll post the old tree first followed by some of the revamping I did last night, along with my general comments on the tree. As always community feedback is appreciated.
Path of the Commander
Keyword: Formation: Formations are similar to stances. All allies within range are treated as though in the formation. Allies can choose not to participate in the formation should they choose.
Opening Strike - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Melee Attack
Effect: If it hits all allies that strike the target gain +15/30 on their next attack roll to hit against that target.
Ripping Strike - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Opening Strike
Type: Passive
Effect: When using Opening Strike if the attack also wounds all allies gain a +15/30 on their roll to wound as well.
Bolstering Courage - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: Gain +1/3/5 Wp and S for each ally in your same range (Max of 3).
Oath - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Free Ability
Effect: Choose an ally in melee range. As long as you two are in the same range category your ally gains +5/10 Wp.
Oath of the Swordbrother - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Oath 2
Type: Oath
Effect: When using Oath you may also attach this aspect. Whichever of you has lower Ws may raise their stat to meet their ally. This cannot improve your Ws by more than 5/10. Only one aspect may be active at a time.
Oath of the Guardian - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Oath 2
Type: Oath
Effect: When using Oath you may also attach this aspect. Whichever of you has lower T may raise their stat to meet their ally. This cannot improve your T by more than 5/10. Only one aspect may be active at a time.
Oath of the Berserker - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Oath 2
Type: Oath
Effect: When using Oath you may also attach this aspect. Whichever of you has lower S may raise their stat to meet their ally. This cannot improve your S by more than 5/10. Only one aspect may be active at a time.
True Oath - 1 Rank
Requirements: Oath 2, 2 Oath aspects at 2 Ranks each.
Type: Passive
Effect: You may use all aspects of an oath at the same time but each stat is capped at 5 instead of 10.
Defensive Formation - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Formation
Range: Melee
Effect: Each ally within range gains +1 armor for each other ally. All allies suffer -20/10/0 to hit while in this formation.
Offensive Formation - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Formation
Range: Melee
Effect: Each ally within range gains +1 damage on any physical attack for each other ally. All Allies suffer -4/2/0 armor and -10/5/0 % block and dodge chance.
Expert Tactician - 2 Ranks
Requirements: 2 Formations at Rank 3
Type: Passive
Effect: While in a formation you gain +3/5 Ws and Ag.
Ordered Barrage - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Medium Ranged Attack
Effect: Use your Wp instead of Bs for this attack. This attack deals no damage. If it hits all ranged attacks against that target automatically hit and deal an additional 0/2/4 damage.
Strike of 1000 Blades - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Melee Attack
Effect: If this attack hits an ally also in melee can make a free basic melee attack. If that attack hits another ally may make a melee attack. A maximum of 1/2/3 Allies can make attacks off of this attack. Each player may only make one attack.
Path of the Commander
Keyword: Formation: Formations are similar to stances. All allies within range are treated as though in the formation. Allies can choose not to participate in the formation should they choose.
Opening Strike - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Melee Attack
Effect: If it hits all allies that strike the target gain +15/30 on their next attack roll to hit against that target.
Ripping Strike - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Opening Strike
Type: Passive
Effect: When using Opening Strike if the attack also wounds all allies gain a +15/30 on their roll to wound as well.
Bolstering Courage - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: Gain +1/3/5 Wp and S for each ally in your same range (Max of 3).
Oath - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Free Ability
Effect: Choose an ally in melee range. As long as you two are in the same range category your ally gains +5/10 Wp.
Oath of the Swordbrother - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Oath 2
Type: Oath
Effect: When using Oath you may also attach this aspect. Whichever of you has lower Ws may raise their stat to meet their ally. This cannot improve your Ws by more than 5/10. Only one aspect may be active at a time.
Oath of the Guardian - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Oath 2
Type: Oath
Effect: When using Oath you may also attach this aspect. Whichever of you has lower T may raise their stat to meet their ally. This cannot improve your T by more than 5/10. Only one aspect may be active at a time.
Oath of the Berserker - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Oath 2
Type: Oath
Effect: When using Oath you may also attach this aspect. Whichever of you has lower S may raise their stat to meet their ally. This cannot improve your S by more than 5/10. Only one aspect may be active at a time.
True Oath - 1 Rank
Requirements: Oath 2, 2 Oath aspects at 2 Ranks each.
Type: Passive
Effect: You may use all aspects of an oath at the same time but each stat is capped at 5 instead of 10.
Defensive Formation - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Formation
Range: Melee
Effect: Each ally within range gains +1 armor for each other ally. All allies suffer -20/10/0 to hit while in this formation.
Offensive Formation - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Formation
Range: Melee
Effect: Each ally within range gains +1 damage on any physical attack for each other ally. All Allies suffer -4/2/0 armor and -10/5/0 % block and dodge chance.
Expert Tactician - 2 Ranks
Requirements: 2 Formations at Rank 3
Type: Passive
Effect: While in a formation you gain +3/5 Ws and Ag.
Ordered Barrage - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Medium Ranged Attack
Effect: Use your Wp instead of Bs for this attack. This attack deals no damage. If it hits all ranged attacks against that target automatically hit and deal an additional 0/2/4 damage.
Strike of 1000 Blades - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Melee Attack
Effect: If this attack hits an ally also in melee can make a free basic melee attack. If that attack hits another ally may make a melee attack. A maximum of 1/2/3 Allies can make attacks off of this attack. Each player may only make one attack.
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
Here are my three main thoughts on the initial tree.
Formations are boring and could be overpowered, a bad combination.
The oath system while I like needs to be reduced. It should not be the primary focus of the tree.
Not enough passives.
For these reasons almost the entire tree is going to be scrapped.
Here are some of my new suggestions
Sword Brother - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: One ally in your zone gains +1/2 damage with all melee attacks.
Shield Brother - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: One ally in your zone gains +1/2 armor.
Bolstered Courage - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: One ally in your zone gains Magic Resistance (MR) 10/20.
Keyword: Formation- Formations treated as Powerful Free Abilities. In addition when they are activated any number of allies may choose to join the formation assuming they are in the same zone. The more allies that join the more powerful the formation. Should an ally move or be slain they are removed from the formation and the overall strength of the formation is lessened. Should the commander move or perish the formation is immediately disbanded. Once a formation has been formed no other players may join.
All out Assault - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Formation
Effect: Each ally in the formation adds +2/5% critical strike chance to the formation. While in this formation blocking and dodging are impossible.
Shield Wall - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Formation
Effect: Each ally in the formation adds +2/5% block chance to the formation. While in this formation critical strikes are impossible.
Ordered Volley - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Ranged Attack
Effect: 1/2/3 Allies can make a free ranged attack, assuming they are within range, against the target using your Bs.
Strike of 1000 Blades - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Melee Attack
Effect: If this attack hits an ally also in melee can make a free basic melee attack. If that attack hits another ally may make a melee attack. A maximum of 1/2/3 Allies can make attacks off of this attack. Each player may only make one attack.
Rally - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Ability
Effect: All allies within 1 zone recover 5/10/15% of their max W and gain 1/2/3 armor and damage for the next round.
Flanking Maneuver - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: When you and your allies outnumber your opponents you each gain +1/3/5% critical strike chance in melee.
-Keeping these two abilities, reducing their power slightly though.
Opening Strike - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Melee Attack
Effect: If it hits all allies that strike the target gain +10/20 on their next attack roll to hit against that target.
Ripping Strike - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Opening Strike
Type: Passive
Effect: When using Opening Strike if the attack also wounds all allies gain a +10/20 on their roll to wound as well.
Pincer Attack - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Charge
Effect: Choose an enemy within charge range. You and an ally also within charge range charge the target. Roll to Hit and Wound together. If you each hit you each gain +5/10/15 to wound. If you both wound you each gain +1/3/5 damage.
Current Points 30
Formations are boring and could be overpowered, a bad combination.
The oath system while I like needs to be reduced. It should not be the primary focus of the tree.
Not enough passives.
For these reasons almost the entire tree is going to be scrapped.
Here are some of my new suggestions
Sword Brother - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: One ally in your zone gains +1/2 damage with all melee attacks.
Shield Brother - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: One ally in your zone gains +1/2 armor.
Bolstered Courage - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: One ally in your zone gains Magic Resistance (MR) 10/20.
Keyword: Formation- Formations treated as Powerful Free Abilities. In addition when they are activated any number of allies may choose to join the formation assuming they are in the same zone. The more allies that join the more powerful the formation. Should an ally move or be slain they are removed from the formation and the overall strength of the formation is lessened. Should the commander move or perish the formation is immediately disbanded. Once a formation has been formed no other players may join.
All out Assault - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Formation
Effect: Each ally in the formation adds +2/5% critical strike chance to the formation. While in this formation blocking and dodging are impossible.
Shield Wall - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Formation
Effect: Each ally in the formation adds +2/5% block chance to the formation. While in this formation critical strikes are impossible.
Ordered Volley - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Ranged Attack
Effect: 1/2/3 Allies can make a free ranged attack, assuming they are within range, against the target using your Bs.
Strike of 1000 Blades - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Melee Attack
Effect: If this attack hits an ally also in melee can make a free basic melee attack. If that attack hits another ally may make a melee attack. A maximum of 1/2/3 Allies can make attacks off of this attack. Each player may only make one attack.
Rally - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Ability
Effect: All allies within 1 zone recover 5/10/15% of their max W and gain 1/2/3 armor and damage for the next round.
Flanking Maneuver - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: When you and your allies outnumber your opponents you each gain +1/3/5% critical strike chance in melee.
-Keeping these two abilities, reducing their power slightly though.
Opening Strike - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Melee Attack
Effect: If it hits all allies that strike the target gain +10/20 on their next attack roll to hit against that target.
Ripping Strike - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Opening Strike
Type: Passive
Effect: When using Opening Strike if the attack also wounds all allies gain a +10/20 on their roll to wound as well.
Pincer Attack - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Charge
Effect: Choose an enemy within charge range. You and an ally also within charge range charge the target. Roll to Hit and Wound together. If you each hit you each gain +5/10/15 to wound. If you both wound you each gain +1/3/5 damage.
Current Points 30
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
I like the improvements. I'd say that for me personally, the reason I didn't choose the path of commander was simply because it didn't give the commander himself enough bonuses (though it was the last tree to get cut when I was deciding). The Warhammer world is pretty selfish, especially when we're such a variety of races, so it's hard during character creation to justify a path that requires you to rely on allies that you have no real control over. My recommendations would be to add some bonuses for the commander themselves whenever they aid their allies (e.g. a passive ability that gives the commander a + to Ws when he improves an ally's attack or something) and more of an ability to control their allies (maybe requiring a Wp check to break formation unless the commander gives them the go ahead, or an ability where you can order your allies to target specific enemies).
These are just my thoughts on waking up, I'll try and get some better example abilities as the day continues.
These are just my thoughts on waking up, I'll try and get some better example abilities as the day continues.
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
Some questions about the existing abilities, while I contemplate new ones.
Does the commander count as one ally for determining the strength of a formation? Does Ordered Volley actually include a ranged attack by the commander, or just his allies? What exactly does "outnumber" mean, for Flanking Maneuver? Outnumbered in the zone? Outnumbered in the encounter overall? Is the commander affected by Rally?
Does the commander count as one ally for determining the strength of a formation? Does Ordered Volley actually include a ranged attack by the commander, or just his allies? What exactly does "outnumber" mean, for Flanking Maneuver? Outnumbered in the zone? Outnumbered in the encounter overall? Is the commander affected by Rally?
DemonicFerret- Soldier
- Posts : 212
Join date : 2009-06-25
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
@Deadly Chair - I agree the warhammer world in general is very selfish and if you have good suggestions as to how to buff the commander without being overpowered that'd be awesome. My thoughts on this tree were since every other tree is purely a self buff this would be mostly an ally buff as the idea of a tree that requires teamwork appeals to me. As for power a commander still has 2 other paths with which to become awesome himself and I think the overall effectiveness of a group with a commander would be greatly increased. I do see your point though on the not being very good yourself and I'm open to suggestions. As for forcing people into formations I'm not a big fan. I think it should be a voluntary thing that people would benefit from. Using defensive formation for example with 3 people in a zone each gaining a 15% block chance is nothing to sneeze at. If one leaves they know instead of 3 people with 15% block it is reduced to 2 people with a 10% block chance. The passive bumping Ws is easy something that can be thrown in. Is this along the lines of what you're thinking?
Followup Strike
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: Gain +5/10 to hit any enemy an ally has attacked this round.
@Ferret
A) Absolutely the Commander counts for formations.
B) Ordered Volley I was thinking the commander would not attack.
C) Outnumbered is for the zone only. It represents people ganging up on a single target regardless of what else is occurring on the battlefield.
D) Yes the commander is affected by Rally. I think i'll change it so the bonus to damage and armor lasts until the end of the commanders next turn so the commander can benefit from it.
Followup Strike
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: Gain +5/10 to hit any enemy an ally has attacked this round.
@Ferret
A) Absolutely the Commander counts for formations.
B) Ordered Volley I was thinking the commander would not attack.
C) Outnumbered is for the zone only. It represents people ganging up on a single target regardless of what else is occurring on the battlefield.
D) Yes the commander is affected by Rally. I think i'll change it so the bonus to damage and armor lasts until the end of the commanders next turn so the commander can benefit from it.
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
That kind of skill is exactly what I was thinking of, and I agree that the commander tree shouldn't give out huge buffs for the commander himself. Really all I was thinking of were small bonuses, say like if he raises his allies T by 15 he gets a boost of 5 to his own T or something even lower. After looking at the necromancy tree for a moment, I realize that giving the commander some kind of ability that gives him some small allies really takes almost all of my complaints about the skill tree.
Example:
Conscription - 3 Ranks
Requirements: ????
Type: Passive
Effect: Gain 1/2/3 minor soldiers under your command.
Something like this and maybe some other skills to buff or add more soldiers is what I think the Commander class really needs.
Edit: At second glance this seems a bit powerful, but somehow I think the commander needs to be able to acquire allies that aren't PC's.
Example:
Conscription - 3 Ranks
Requirements: ????
Type: Passive
Effect: Gain 1/2/3 minor soldiers under your command.
Ws | Bs | S | T | Wp | W | Wpn Damage | |
Minor Soldier | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 5 | Melee or Ranged (choose at the start of the Adventure) 3-6 |
Something like this and maybe some other skills to buff or add more soldiers is what I think the Commander class really needs.
Edit: At second glance this seems a bit powerful, but somehow I think the commander needs to be able to acquire allies that aren't PC's.
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
I like the idea of summonable minor soldiers for the commander, but they could make formations unbelievably good really fast. They might have to not count for formation purposes - maybe they could benefit from formations, but not increase their power? Two passives occur to me.
Elite Training - 2 ranks
Requirements: Conscription 3
Type: Passive
Effect: Your summoned soldiers gain an additional 50/100% of whatever stat buffs/roll bonuses your other skills would provide them.
Shared Strength - 2 ranks
Requirements: ??
Type: Passive
Effect: You gain 25/50% of whatever stat buffs/roll bonuses your skills provide to your allies.
I feel like there is a place for straight stat buff auras, as well, something like the following:
Weapon Training - 3 ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive - Aura (you can only have one aura active at a time, switching auras is a free action max once per round)
Effect: Allies within (your zone? one zone?) gain 3/5/10 WS as long as they remain in range.
Similar auras could exist for any stat. Commanders could only provide one at a time, so they would be providing a constant buff of their choice to the other party members, which would also have a greater effect on their soldiers. Even better: Instead of Elite Training giving your soldiers +50/100% of your buffs, it could apply to any of your summoned creatures. Synergy? Yes please, I would love to take commander to buff my horrors.
Aura Mastery - 2 ranks
Requirements: One aura max rank
Type: Powerful free ability
Effect: Until the beginning of your next turn, the effect of your chosen aura is increased by 50/100%.
Elite Training - 2 ranks
Requirements: Conscription 3
Type: Passive
Effect: Your summoned soldiers gain an additional 50/100% of whatever stat buffs/roll bonuses your other skills would provide them.
Shared Strength - 2 ranks
Requirements: ??
Type: Passive
Effect: You gain 25/50% of whatever stat buffs/roll bonuses your skills provide to your allies.
I feel like there is a place for straight stat buff auras, as well, something like the following:
Weapon Training - 3 ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive - Aura (you can only have one aura active at a time, switching auras is a free action max once per round)
Effect: Allies within (your zone? one zone?) gain 3/5/10 WS as long as they remain in range.
Similar auras could exist for any stat. Commanders could only provide one at a time, so they would be providing a constant buff of their choice to the other party members, which would also have a greater effect on their soldiers. Even better: Instead of Elite Training giving your soldiers +50/100% of your buffs, it could apply to any of your summoned creatures. Synergy? Yes please, I would love to take commander to buff my horrors.
Aura Mastery - 2 ranks
Requirements: One aura max rank
Type: Powerful free ability
Effect: Until the beginning of your next turn, the effect of your chosen aura is increased by 50/100%.
DemonicFerret- Soldier
- Posts : 212
Join date : 2009-06-25
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
@Teheboq. Love the idea. In terms of power it may need some tweaking I agree but I think it is definitely a good start. I think three might be a bit too high. Perhaps 2 or even 1 if it was more powerful. I like the ranged/melee variation and think an appropriate skill to complement it might be something along the lines of
Default - Melee - Equipped with HW
Ranged - Equipped with dagger (2-4) & Javelins (Light Throwing)
Equip Conscripts
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: Your conscripts start with the following equipment.
Or alternatively we could just give them access to the starting equipment list. With 1/2/3 Points for equipment. That would allow people to tweak them as necessary. Want a great weapon wielding dude with light armor? or a heavy armor shielded warrior? Or skirmisher with Heavy throwing weapon, shield and light armor.
@Ferret. An easy fix is that summons in general may not join formations but may benefit from them. As for straight stat buffs I think 3/5/10 is a bit high but I'd consider a 2/5. Straight stat buff auras don't strike me as very interesting but its a possibility I suppose. If i did that i'd want to change the sword/shield brother skill into a block/crit chance instead of straight dmg/arm bonuses. As for summoning synergy with path of commander I completely support that. I feel a great commander should benefit their troops whatever the source. But that said I feel the conscript or whatever we decide on for the summon(s) for the path of commander should benefit more from the commanders abilities.
In terms of the summons. Do people feel that two smaller, weaker summons would be better or one better summon?
Default - Melee - Equipped with HW
Ranged - Equipped with dagger (2-4) & Javelins (Light Throwing)
Equip Conscripts
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: Your conscripts start with the following equipment.
Melee | Ranged | |
Rank 1 | HW & Shield | Bow |
Rank 2 | HW & Shield & Light Armor | Shield & Heavy Throwing Wpn |
Rank 3 | HW, Shield, HA | Crossbow |
Or alternatively we could just give them access to the starting equipment list. With 1/2/3 Points for equipment. That would allow people to tweak them as necessary. Want a great weapon wielding dude with light armor? or a heavy armor shielded warrior? Or skirmisher with Heavy throwing weapon, shield and light armor.
@Ferret. An easy fix is that summons in general may not join formations but may benefit from them. As for straight stat buffs I think 3/5/10 is a bit high but I'd consider a 2/5. Straight stat buff auras don't strike me as very interesting but its a possibility I suppose. If i did that i'd want to change the sword/shield brother skill into a block/crit chance instead of straight dmg/arm bonuses. As for summoning synergy with path of commander I completely support that. I feel a great commander should benefit their troops whatever the source. But that said I feel the conscript or whatever we decide on for the summon(s) for the path of commander should benefit more from the commanders abilities.
In terms of the summons. Do people feel that two smaller, weaker summons would be better or one better summon?
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
I would say two weaker summons would be better than one stronger one, because that's two dudes who can both benefit from your buffs rather than just one. The advantage of one guy, I think, would be that he could join and improve formations without being too imba. Of course, there's no reason we have to do just one - there could be a skill for either way (although you would probably want to restrict people from taking both)
(Edit: Two summons also requires twice as many rolls as one, which you should at least bear in mind)
I like the idea of the summons starting very weak, but getting more bonuses from your buffs than other party members (see elite training, above). It would allow your summons to scale in power without forcing you to spend all your points on specifically summon related abilities - you could continue improving your general buffs, instead, benefiting the rest of the group and keeping your summons competitive.
Straight stat auras are not terribly interesting, I agree, but I feel like the strategic possibilities are fairly cool (switching auras based on the situation, using aura mastery to provide a bigger, temporary buff to your group). I also feel like it's a good balance solution - providing a constant passive buff is a big boost for the path, which I feel like it needs... although I could be wrong, the soldiers may provide the necessary boost.
(Edit: Two summons also requires twice as many rolls as one, which you should at least bear in mind)
I like the idea of the summons starting very weak, but getting more bonuses from your buffs than other party members (see elite training, above). It would allow your summons to scale in power without forcing you to spend all your points on specifically summon related abilities - you could continue improving your general buffs, instead, benefiting the rest of the group and keeping your summons competitive.
Straight stat auras are not terribly interesting, I agree, but I feel like the strategic possibilities are fairly cool (switching auras based on the situation, using aura mastery to provide a bigger, temporary buff to your group). I also feel like it's a good balance solution - providing a constant passive buff is a big boost for the path, which I feel like it needs... although I could be wrong, the soldiers may provide the necessary boost.
DemonicFerret- Soldier
- Posts : 212
Join date : 2009-06-25
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
I think more smaller soldiers are more interesting to me personally. Though I'm also interested in being able to provide your soldiers with equipment once we can utilize gold, and maybe farther down the line being able to upgrade soldier stats. I agree that straight stat boosts aren't interesting. As for your suggested melee and ranged types, I'd say just get rid of the ranged's dagger entirely. I figure summons should be weak enough (due to their potential power in formations) that you have to decide between melee and ranged combat entirely. If you give the ranged guys the dagger and leave melee with a standard HW I'm almost always going to choose the ranged guy (a ranged attack plus 2-4 in melee doesn't equal 3-6 at all).
Summons being able to use formation buffs but not add to them is perfect in my eyes.
Summons being able to use formation buffs but not add to them is perfect in my eyes.
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
Alright Soldier Revamp
Conscripts - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Summon Ability
Effect: Summons 1/2 soldiers from the list below.
Soldier- 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Summon Ability
Effect: Summons a powerful bodyguard to protect you. It is equipped with a hand weapon and shield, and 0/1/2 items from the following list.
Large Shield - 10% block chance (15% against ranged attacks)
Heavy Armor - 2 armor
Javelins - Heavy Throwing weapons 3-7, skirmish
Heavy Weapon - 2 Handed weapon. 5-10 damage.
Bodyguard - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Soldier 3
Type: Passive
Effect: Your soldier gains an additional +2/5 T and W if it is in the same zone as you. In addition whenever you suffer damage from an attack you may redirect 25/50% of the damage from yourself to the soldier. Armor cannot negate this damage.
Combat Veteran - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: When you use a summon from path of the commander it gains +2/5 Ws, Bs, S & T. This can only effect a maximum of 1 summon at a time.
Also Sword Brother and Shield Brother changed.
Sword. Grants an ally in your zone a 5/10% critical strike chance in melee.
Shied. Grants an ally in your zone a 5/10% block chance.
Conscripts - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Summon Ability
Effect: Summons 1/2 soldiers from the list below.
Ws | Bs | S | T | Ag | Wp | W | Wpn Damage | |
Melee | 14 | 10 | 12 | 12 | 10 | 10 | 6 | Hand Weapon 3-6, Buckler (5% block) |
Ranged | 8 | 15 | 10 | 8 | 15 | 10 | 4 | Short Bow 2-4 Medium Range. Dagger 2-3 |
Soldier- 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Summon Ability
Effect: Summons a powerful bodyguard to protect you. It is equipped with a hand weapon and shield, and 0/1/2 items from the following list.
Large Shield - 10% block chance (15% against ranged attacks)
Heavy Armor - 2 armor
Javelins - Heavy Throwing weapons 3-7, skirmish
Heavy Weapon - 2 Handed weapon. 5-10 damage.
Ws | Bs | S | T | Ag | Wp | W | |
Bodyguard | 15 | 10 | 12 | 18 | 10 | 15 | 8 |
Bodyguard - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Soldier 3
Type: Passive
Effect: Your soldier gains an additional +2/5 T and W if it is in the same zone as you. In addition whenever you suffer damage from an attack you may redirect 25/50% of the damage from yourself to the soldier. Armor cannot negate this damage.
Combat Veteran - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: When you use a summon from path of the commander it gains +2/5 Ws, Bs, S & T. This can only effect a maximum of 1 summon at a time.
Also Sword Brother and Shield Brother changed.
Sword. Grants an ally in your zone a 5/10% critical strike chance in melee.
Shied. Grants an ally in your zone a 5/10% block chance.
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
I like.
The choice between the two summons is good and the melee and ranged conscripts feel equal to me now.
The choice between the two summons is good and the melee and ranged conscripts feel equal to me now.
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
I really like the idea of the summonable soldiers-- it gives a bit of control back to the Commander path that they wouldn't normally have. A problem that I've always had with Leader style characters is that they tend to be very heavily reliant on your allies working with you and not just doing their own thing. The equip thing is pretty cool as well. I like it a real lot.
I get the feeling (and this is an issue with Necromancy as well, as it is Summon based) that the summons might get outscaled. It's something I'm going to be exploring with Necromancy once I have some more Skill Points, to see just how useful summons end up being against other creatures. For instance, I have 20-something Ws and I have trouble hitting things right now at entry level. What happens when I'm fighting things that are going up against my 50 Ws? A measly 15 from the Bodyguard would never stack up to that and he effectively becomes nothing but a bag of HP that the enemy might decide to hit. Though if you're modding enemy behavior IC, it would probably ignore the Bodyguard who is little to no threat whatsoever to it.
Just a thought.
I get the feeling (and this is an issue with Necromancy as well, as it is Summon based) that the summons might get outscaled. It's something I'm going to be exploring with Necromancy once I have some more Skill Points, to see just how useful summons end up being against other creatures. For instance, I have 20-something Ws and I have trouble hitting things right now at entry level. What happens when I'm fighting things that are going up against my 50 Ws? A measly 15 from the Bodyguard would never stack up to that and he effectively becomes nothing but a bag of HP that the enemy might decide to hit. Though if you're modding enemy behavior IC, it would probably ignore the Bodyguard who is little to no threat whatsoever to it.
Just a thought.
Forte- Soldier
- Posts : 140
Join date : 2009-06-23
Age : 36
Location : Minnesota
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
Well the way the points work out (1 Ws more means 1% higher chance to hit), it seems to me that (early on at least) summons are very powerful. Plain and simple, the difference between two attacks at 10 Ws and one attack at 25 Ws is heavily weighted in favor of the two attacks. I do worry about the future, when we're all mini-gods, but for now that's not too much of a problem.
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
Aye. Right now it's definitely not an issue since the summons are almost as powerful as we are. This is more of a long-term concern, if it could be called a concern at all considering the summons are basically free sacks of HP. But we'll see!
Also: For clarification. If I were to combine Path of the Commander with Necromancy or the Lore of Tzneetch, could I have a Bodyguard and Skeletons/Horrors active at the same time? Is there a summon cap on how many I can have active?
Also: For clarification. If I were to combine Path of the Commander with Necromancy or the Lore of Tzneetch, could I have a Bodyguard and Skeletons/Horrors active at the same time? Is there a summon cap on how many I can have active?
Forte- Soldier
- Posts : 140
Join date : 2009-06-23
Age : 36
Location : Minnesota
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
The Soldier seems underpowered compared to getting two melee conscripts. He gets equipment, yes, but I think he needs A: more of a WS increase over the melee conscript B: S18 as well as T18 C: both
Do you care if people take both Soldier and Conscript? Also, what exactly does "Summon Ability" mean? Is it a free action?
Do you care if people take both Soldier and Conscript? Also, what exactly does "Summon Ability" mean? Is it a free action?
DemonicFerret- Soldier
- Posts : 212
Join date : 2009-06-25
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
@Ferret - Summon is a keyword I used in Necromancy. You may only have 1 summon spell active at a time. You don't think a S18/T18 dude is overkill? For 1 skill point you are effectively adding another character. As for having multiple I suppose having a summon skill from each lore would be okay but dice would start getting difficult. Summoning a creature is not a free ability it takes your turn.
@Deadly Chair - I was never planning on having it possible to equip your summons with loot you find. This is a problem for a couple of reasons. A) Balance- Both in terms of being OP with additional magic item slots and in terms of being dickish to the leadership characters requiring them to gain additional loot to be effective. B) I was not planning on having any of the other summons, zombies, horrors etc be equipable in the sense of just grabbing hold of your loot. Also in terms of Ws and Balance yes in general having 2 attacks at a lower Ws is better but once you get to the higher %'s of hitting which many of these summons are often the one attack at a higher Ws is better. Example 2 attacks at a 10% chance of hitting are worse than one at 20%. The other thing too is that Ws also effects your chance to be hit.
@Forte - I too have concerns about scaling summons in the future. One thing for sure that I will add is items that increase the effectiveness of your summons which will help a lot. Also if you decide summoning is still your thing and it seems important to a lot of people I'd consider adding a mastery path focusing on summons. As for your hitting things problem blame the dice not the character. Having an extra roll or two out of the way before you swing might do you good =) . Also if summons start becoming very weak I am more than willing to add another passive ability to a tree later to increase effectiveness.
I'll post more later. How about thoughts on the non-summon abilities?
@Deadly Chair - I was never planning on having it possible to equip your summons with loot you find. This is a problem for a couple of reasons. A) Balance- Both in terms of being OP with additional magic item slots and in terms of being dickish to the leadership characters requiring them to gain additional loot to be effective. B) I was not planning on having any of the other summons, zombies, horrors etc be equipable in the sense of just grabbing hold of your loot. Also in terms of Ws and Balance yes in general having 2 attacks at a lower Ws is better but once you get to the higher %'s of hitting which many of these summons are often the one attack at a higher Ws is better. Example 2 attacks at a 10% chance of hitting are worse than one at 20%. The other thing too is that Ws also effects your chance to be hit.
@Forte - I too have concerns about scaling summons in the future. One thing for sure that I will add is items that increase the effectiveness of your summons which will help a lot. Also if you decide summoning is still your thing and it seems important to a lot of people I'd consider adding a mastery path focusing on summons. As for your hitting things problem blame the dice not the character. Having an extra roll or two out of the way before you swing might do you good =) . Also if summons start becoming very weak I am more than willing to add another passive ability to a tree later to increase effectiveness.
I'll post more later. How about thoughts on the non-summon abilities?
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
I think the summons are at a good place with the stats that they have. I like formations, and the ones you have are great, but I'm still not so keen on the single ally buffs (sword brother and shield brother as examples). They're a little boring to me, and they automatically favor the single bodyguard over the two conscripts, which is a little odd to me since it seems the commander should get stronger with the more troops he has. Beyond that the single bodyguard already has plenty of positives over the conscripts.
My biggest concern however lies in how the bodyguard or conscripts enter the fight. Treating them as summons mechanically makes sense to me, but fluffwise I don't like the idea that you have to or can summon them into the fight. It seems like these should be followers attracted by your charisma and leadership abilities who fight with you from the start. Of course this is just a fluff problem, so take it with a grain of salt.
My biggest concern however lies in how the bodyguard or conscripts enter the fight. Treating them as summons mechanically makes sense to me, but fluffwise I don't like the idea that you have to or can summon them into the fight. It seems like these should be followers attracted by your charisma and leadership abilities who fight with you from the start. Of course this is just a fluff problem, so take it with a grain of salt.
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
I guess compared to our current characters, S18 T18 is pretty damn strong. But compared to the conscripts... I still feel like the two of them are vastly superior to the one soldier.
DemonicFerret- Soldier
- Posts : 212
Join date : 2009-06-25
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
Ignoring the conscripts/summons for now. How do we feel about the rest of the abilities below. Also I re-added the oath system with significant changes.
Keyword: Formation- Formations treated as Powerful Free Abilities. In addition when they are activated any number of allies may choose to join the formation assuming they are in the same zone. The more allies that join the more powerful the formation. Should an ally move or be slain they are removed from the formation and the overall strength of the formation is lessened. Should the commander move or perish the formation is immediately disbanded. Once a formation has been formed no other players may join.
All out Assault - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Formation
Effect: Each ally in the formation adds +2/5% critical strike chance to the formation. While in this formation blocking and dodging are impossible.
Shield Wall - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Formation
Effect: Each ally in the formation adds +2/5% block chance to the formation. While in this formation critical strikes are impossible.
Ordered Volley - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Ranged Ability
Effect: 1/2/3 Allies can make a free ranged attack, assuming they are within range, against the target using your Bs.
Strike of 1000 Blades - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Melee Attack
Effect: If this attack hits an ally also in melee can make a free basic melee attack. If that attack hits another ally may make a melee attack. A maximum of 1/2/3 Allies can make attacks off of this attack. Each player may only make one attack.
Rally - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Ability
Effect: All allies within 1 zone recover 5/10/15% of their max W and gain 1/2/3 armor and damage for the next round.
Flanking Maneuver - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: When there are more allied units in your zone then enemy units, you and all of your allies gain a +1/3/5% critical strike chance in melee.
Opening Strike - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Melee Attack
Effect: If it hits all allies that strike the target gain +10/20 on their next attack roll to hit against that target.
Ripping Strike - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Opening Strike
Type: Passive
Effect: When using Opening Strike if the attack also wounds all allies gain a +10/20 on their roll to wound as well.
Pincer Attack - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Charge
Effect: Choose an enemy within charge range. You and an ally also within charge range charge the target. Roll to Hit and Wound together. If you each hit you each gain +5/10/15 to wound. If you both wound you each gain +1/3/5 damage.
Oath - Oaths are passives that target yourself and a single ally in your zone. Each turn you may change the target of an oath, or switch which oath you are using at the beginning of your turn. Only one oath may be active at a time. If your oath target moves out of your zone any bonus they would gain from your oath is lost.
Sword Brother - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Oath
Effect: If you or your oath target successfully hits your target in melee the other player gains +5/10 to their first hit roll next turn.
Sword Brother - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Oath
Effect: If you or your oath target is dealt damage the other player gains a +5/10% block chance for 1 round.
Blood Brother - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Oath
Effect: If you or your oath target successfully deals damage to your target in melee the other player gains +20/40% of the damage dealt to their first damage roll next turn.
True Oath - 1 Rank
Requirements: 2 Oaths max rank.
Type: Passive
Effect: You may have more than one oath active at a time but they must all be bound to the same ally.
Keyword: Formation- Formations treated as Powerful Free Abilities. In addition when they are activated any number of allies may choose to join the formation assuming they are in the same zone. The more allies that join the more powerful the formation. Should an ally move or be slain they are removed from the formation and the overall strength of the formation is lessened. Should the commander move or perish the formation is immediately disbanded. Once a formation has been formed no other players may join.
All out Assault - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Formation
Effect: Each ally in the formation adds +2/5% critical strike chance to the formation. While in this formation blocking and dodging are impossible.
Shield Wall - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Formation
Effect: Each ally in the formation adds +2/5% block chance to the formation. While in this formation critical strikes are impossible.
Ordered Volley - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Ranged Ability
Effect: 1/2/3 Allies can make a free ranged attack, assuming they are within range, against the target using your Bs.
Strike of 1000 Blades - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Melee Attack
Effect: If this attack hits an ally also in melee can make a free basic melee attack. If that attack hits another ally may make a melee attack. A maximum of 1/2/3 Allies can make attacks off of this attack. Each player may only make one attack.
Rally - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Ability
Effect: All allies within 1 zone recover 5/10/15% of their max W and gain 1/2/3 armor and damage for the next round.
Flanking Maneuver - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: When there are more allied units in your zone then enemy units, you and all of your allies gain a +1/3/5% critical strike chance in melee.
Opening Strike - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Melee Attack
Effect: If it hits all allies that strike the target gain +10/20 on their next attack roll to hit against that target.
Ripping Strike - 2 Ranks
Requirements: Opening Strike
Type: Passive
Effect: When using Opening Strike if the attack also wounds all allies gain a +10/20 on their roll to wound as well.
Pincer Attack - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Charge
Effect: Choose an enemy within charge range. You and an ally also within charge range charge the target. Roll to Hit and Wound together. If you each hit you each gain +5/10/15 to wound. If you both wound you each gain +1/3/5 damage.
Oath - Oaths are passives that target yourself and a single ally in your zone. Each turn you may change the target of an oath, or switch which oath you are using at the beginning of your turn. Only one oath may be active at a time. If your oath target moves out of your zone any bonus they would gain from your oath is lost.
Sword Brother - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Oath
Effect: If you or your oath target successfully hits your target in melee the other player gains +5/10 to their first hit roll next turn.
Sword Brother - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Oath
Effect: If you or your oath target is dealt damage the other player gains a +5/10% block chance for 1 round.
Blood Brother - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Oath
Effect: If you or your oath target successfully deals damage to your target in melee the other player gains +20/40% of the damage dealt to their first damage roll next turn.
True Oath - 1 Rank
Requirements: 2 Oaths max rank.
Type: Passive
Effect: You may have more than one oath active at a time but they must all be bound to the same ally.
Last edited by FlyingPinkPony on Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
Everything here looks really good to me. I don't see anything that looks unappealing or massively broken.
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
Sweet. That's the response I received from forte and ferret as well. Okay as for these little summoning things.
Conscripts - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Summon Ability
Effect: Summons 2 conscripts. The summons by default are conscripts but 0/1/2 of the conscripts may be another of the summons listed below.
Other Possible Skills-
Urgent Conscription - Ranks 1
Requirements: Conscripts 3
Type: Passive
Effect: You may use your conscripts ability as a free action. If you do so you only summon a single conscript instead of two.
Inspiring Leader - Ranks 2
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: Any summon you control, regardless of tree, gains an additional +2/4 Ws,Bs, S, and +1/2W.
We'll target the bodyguard/Single more powerful summon next. How do these skills feel to people?
Conscripts - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Summon Ability
Effect: Summons 2 conscripts. The summons by default are conscripts but 0/1/2 of the conscripts may be another of the summons listed below.
Ws | Bs | S | T | Ag | Wp | W | Wpn Damage | |
Conscript | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 4 | Two-Handed Weapon (Pitchfork etc) 2-8 |
Conscript Archer | 8 | 14 | 8 | 8 | 12 | 8 | 3 | Bow- Range Medium, 3-6, Dagger 2-3 |
Conscript Skirmisher | 10 | 12 | 10 | 8 | 14 | 8 | 3 | Javelin (One Shot - Skirmish) 4-8, Short Sword 3-4, Shield 5% block |
Conscript Militia | 14 | 8 | 12 | 10 | 8 | 10 | 6 | Sword 3-5, Shield 8%, Light armor |
Other Possible Skills-
Urgent Conscription - Ranks 1
Requirements: Conscripts 3
Type: Passive
Effect: You may use your conscripts ability as a free action. If you do so you only summon a single conscript instead of two.
Inspiring Leader - Ranks 2
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: Any summon you control, regardless of tree, gains an additional +2/4 Ws,Bs, S, and +1/2W.
We'll target the bodyguard/Single more powerful summon next. How do these skills feel to people?
Last edited by FlyingPinkPony on Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:16 pm; edited 3 times in total
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
My only complaint is with the conscript militia's # of wounds. Even with maxed inspiring leader it's likely that they'll be one-shotted by even a standard enemy. Personally I think that 6-7 W without inspiring leader is the sweet spot. They'll still be one-shotted by a hand weapon of someone with a S of 15 or more on a high roll, but with inspiring leader it's almost guaranteed they'll at least survive one blow.
I feel the one-shot two-shot difference is what really should separate the Conscript Militia from his brothers, siunce you're already choosing a lower damage option than a standard conscript.
I feel the one-shot two-shot difference is what really should separate the Conscript Militia from his brothers, siunce you're already choosing a lower damage option than a standard conscript.
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
You twisted an extra wound out of me for militia. 6W, 8% block, and 1 armor should be enough of a difference over 4W to warrant the two tenths of a point average loss in damage. In addition to the increased hit and wound chance.
EDIT: Actually I lied the Soldier overall has a .3 dmg per round edge over the militia. I'm going to bump the regular militias max damage by 1 to compensate.
EDIT: Actually I lied the Soldier overall has a .3 dmg per round edge over the militia. I'm going to bump the regular militias max damage by 1 to compensate.
Re: Revamp of the Week #2 - Commander
Summon Soldier - 3 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Ability
Effect: Summons a soldier with 1/2/3 pieces of equipment from the list below.
A soldier can be equipped with various equipment at the time of summoning. Each piece of equipment adds different benefits. These weapons may be fluffed however the commander wishes but add the following benefits.
Great Weapon - 5-9 damage 2 handed, +4 S.
Improved One Handed Weapon- 4-6 damage. +4 Ws.
Heavy Armor - 2 Armor, +4 T.
Large Shield - 10% block chance, +4 Ag.
Protective Charm - 5% Ward, +8 Wp.
Throwing Weapon - 4-10 short range, One-Shot skirmish. +2 Ws & Bs.
Bow - Medium Ranged, Move and shoot, +4 Bs.
Bodyguard - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: Your summoned soldier gains an additional 2/4W. In addition if it is the same zone as you whenever you take damage it absorbs 25/50% of the damage you receive.
Requirements: None
Type: Powerful Ability
Effect: Summons a soldier with 1/2/3 pieces of equipment from the list below.
Ws | Bs | S | T | Ag | Wp | W | Equipment | |
Solider | 12 | 10 | 12 | 12 | 10 | 12 | 6 | Hand Weapon (2-5), Light Armor and Shield. |
A soldier can be equipped with various equipment at the time of summoning. Each piece of equipment adds different benefits. These weapons may be fluffed however the commander wishes but add the following benefits.
Great Weapon - 5-9 damage 2 handed, +4 S.
Improved One Handed Weapon- 4-6 damage. +4 Ws.
Heavy Armor - 2 Armor, +4 T.
Large Shield - 10% block chance, +4 Ag.
Protective Charm - 5% Ward, +8 Wp.
Throwing Weapon - 4-10 short range, One-Shot skirmish. +2 Ws & Bs.
Bow - Medium Ranged, Move and shoot, +4 Bs.
Bodyguard - 2 Ranks
Requirements: None
Type: Passive
Effect: Your summoned soldier gains an additional 2/4W. In addition if it is the same zone as you whenever you take damage it absorbs 25/50% of the damage you receive.
Last edited by FlyingPinkPony on Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:27 am; edited 3 times in total
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