Spellcasting

Spell casting is something I'll be looking at in the near future. There are a few things I am considering to solve the problem. While spellcasting is supposed to more of a high risk, high gain, system the current iteration is high gain and minimal risk. This is entirely my fault as the focus of my design was spent on weapon users with significantly less time spent on casting.

Without trying to alter the system too much the current formula is this 40+10*Spell Level + 5* Number of spells previously cast this fight + Other modifiers and a miscast is if you fail you casting roll by more than 40.

or 40+10(SL)+5(SpCst)+X -Wp < Roll

Currently there are 3 problems I can see with this system.

A) The total rolls to cast is a bit too low and spells are too easy to cast and miscasts unless a very new player casts a very powerful spell is almost impossible to trigger.

B) Almost all spells currently auto wound which makes it so weapon users have 2 rolls (hit and wound) while casters have only 1 (cast).

C) Since Wp is a flat score as characters progress their spells will becomes easier and easier to cast while weapon users will have to deal with constantly scaling factors (Increased enemy Ws, T etc).

Here are some of the things I am going to try after the alpha test is resolved.

Increasing the casting roll slightly. I do not believe it needs to be increased significantly. I am considering increasing the previous spells cast multiplier from 5 to 10. Currently since rounds can take quite some time casting enough spells to seriously impact the multiplier is not really possible this should achieve that.

The other thing I am considering without altering the casting roll too significantly is taking into consideration the spellcaster's current health. This will serve 2 purposes. 1) it makes it so spellcaster's have even more incentive not to get hurt, and make short ranged to melee casting a little more risky, and 2) it also adds to adding a slight amount to the casting roll. Each wound suffered would add 1 to the casting difficultly.

Those tweaks only address problems A. Problem B is the much larger problem. A possible tweak is that spells should require a wound roll. In the case of a basic projectile the S of the attack would be equal to the Wp of the caster. This serves several purposes. First it encourages more expenditure in willpower for casters, but it also encourages willpower for non-casters which I believe would be a dump stat along with BS for many characters (making BS not a dump stat is another tricky issue) since it not only reduces damage from spells but also makes them less likely to land in the first place.

This change would also address problem C to an extent as players increase in power and statistics the enemies would as well. By allowing enemies stats to directly control the effectiveness of spells it would solve some of the scaling issues that might become present later.

If you have ideas or thoughts lemme know.

I was just about to make a thread about this, you beat me to it. Point by point:

FlyingPinkPony wrote: A) The total rolls to cast is a bit too low and spells are too easy to cast and miscasts unless a very new player casts a very powerful spell is almost impossible to trigger.

I would suggest making miscast completely random on failed casts. More fun that way, and even awesome wizards still have to worry about it - which is as it should be. (Fuck Slann forever.) Or, if you don't want to add another roll (which is understandable) base it on a random aspect of the casting roll. Example: If your casting roll ended in 9 but you fail to cast, you miscast. (Tzeentch's lucky number, of course.)

The base difficulty to cast its at least 50 for a first level spell, so it's the same as melee attacks - the difference that makes it so easy is that you don't have to subtract one of your opponent's stats. This also seems like a problem, because your opponent's stats are completely irrelevant - it's just as easy to affect a goblin with a spell as it is an archmage.

I would suggest subtracting the opponent's WP from your casting roll - it makes casts at least 10 points more difficult, which seems appropriate, it makes your target actually matter for the casting roll, and it gives non-casting characters SOME reason to put points in WP once in a while.

FlyingPinkPony wrote:[B) Almost all spells currently auto wound which makes it so weapon users have 2 rolls (hit and wound) while casters have only 1 (cast).

This is true. Not needing to roll to wound could be the advantage of spells, that make them worth the additional risk. Or you could just make them roll to wound - maybe roll to wound against WP instead of T? That would also solve the above problem that the opponent's stats are mostly irrelevant. I feel like some more elegant solution is required, but nothing comes to mind immediately.

FlyingPinkPony wrote:C) Since Wp is a flat score as characters progress their spells will becomes easier and easier to cast while weapon users will have to deal with constantly scaling factors (Increased enemy Ws, T etc).

All the more reason I think enemy WP needs to have some effect on casting rolls. (I know it affects bonus damage for most spells, but at that point you're already getting hit. WP should give you some avoidance, not just reduction.)

FlyingPinkPony wrote:I am considering increasing the previous spells cast multiplier from 5 to 10.

Instead of this or possibly in addition to this, consider adding a 5 point penalty for each cast of the SAME spell. Encouraging casters to cast DIFFERENT spells seems like a valuable goal. Otherwise, dicks like me are just going to make Red Fire as good as possible and cast it over and over and over and over and over and over. Oooo, or maybe a STACKING 5 point penalty for each cast of the same spell? -5 for the second, -15 for the third, -30 for the fourth, etc? That would make it plausible to reach absurd casting totals in the course of one combat, if you wanted to spam one spell. And it would make having a really high WP valuable, because then you could still pull it off.

FlyingPinkPony wrote:The other thing I am considering without altering the casting roll too significantly is taking into consideration the spellcaster's current health. This will serve 2 purposes. 1) it makes it so spellcaster's have even more incentive not to get hurt, and make short ranged to melee casting a little more risky, and 2) it also adds to adding a slight amount to the casting roll. Each wound suffered would add 1 to the casting difficultly.

Haven't really done any ranged combat yet so I can't comment. My instinct is that I don't like this idea, though - it's a doublewin mechanic, makes it even harder to recover from a bad early game. If a wizard takes a lucky shot in round 1, his whole encounter is fucked.

FlyingPinkPony wrote:In the case of a basic projectile the S of the attack would be equal to the Wp of the caster. This serves several purposes. First it encourages more expenditure in willpower for casters, but it also encourages willpower for non-casters which I believe would be a dump stat along with BS for many characters...

Hmm... maybe I should read your whole post before I reply. I think making enemy WP affect the cast roll is a better idea than adding a wound vs WP roll. Some unique, castery mechanic to wound would be nice. No idea what that would be, I'll think about it.

I'm pretty sure I had another idea I'm forgetting, I'll edit it in when I remember.

EDIT: I just looked at High Magic. Enemy WP needs to have some effect on the anti-casting spells, or high elf wizards basically win against any other caster, regardless of their stats. Also holy SHIT Khaine's Fury is good.

As for the miscast section I think having a more random element would be fine, I do wish to avoid excessive rolling when possible but another roll might be the best solution. The 9 idea for tzeentch is cute, I'll look into it.

Demonic Ferret wrote:I would suggest subtracting the opponent's WP from your casting roll - it makes casts at least 10 points more difficult, which seems appropriate, it makes your target actually matter for the casting roll, and it gives non-casting characters SOME reason to put points in WP once in a while.

While I agree, the main problem is that many spells either don't have a direct target or are personal buff/enhancement skills. Also I feel on some level that high level casters should be able to cast spells with significant ease but the effect of those spells should vary with the target. One thing I was going to add was a keyword Magic Resistance which lowered the damage from enemy spells but instead I may increase the difficulty of any spells cast on the target by maybe 10 per point or something. So Magic resistance 2 would add 20 to the difficulty of any casting roll on the target.

Demonic Ferret wrote:
Hmm... maybe I should read your whole post before I reply. I think making enemy WP affect the cast roll is a better idea than adding a wound vs WP roll. Some unique, castery mechanic to wound would be nice. No idea what that would be, I'll think about it.

If it would make you feel better to call it a spell power roll instead of a wound roll I can arrange that but it would use the same mechanic. And yes, usually this would be a Wp vs Wp, but if a few other cases it could use another stat. For example fireball might use Ag for the defender or Nurgle's rot might use T to help mix it up a bit.

Def Stat - Att Stat +50 < Roll.

Demonic Ferret wrote:
Haven't really done any ranged combat yet so I can't comment. My instinct is that I don't like this idea, though - it's a doublewin mechanic, makes it even harder to recover from a bad early game. If a wizard takes a lucky shot in round 1, his whole encounter is fucked.

First off I would hardly consider you "fucked". If you take your character for example, if you are on the brink of death sitting at a mere 1 out of 15 wounds you would only have a 14 point increase to your casting roll. This not only allows a small scaling factor if I keep the casting rolls static without an opponents attribute as players will be getting progressively more wounds and taking more damage. This also fits in
heavily with the lore as injured, or exhausted wizards are much more likely to fail at casting.

Demonic Ferret wrote:Instead of this or possibly in addition to this, consider adding a 5 point penalty for each cast of the SAME spell. Encouraging casters to cast DIFFERENT spells seems like a valuable goal. Otherwise, dicks like me are just going to make Red Fire as good as possible and cast it over and over and over and over and over and over. Oooo, or maybe a STACKING 5 point penalty for each cast of the same spell? -5 for the second, -15 for the third, -30 for the fourth, etc? That would make it plausible to reach absurd casting totals in the course of one combat, if you wanted to spam one spell. And it would make having a really high WP valuable, because then you could still pull it off.

I like this idea a lot. I agree that spell diversity should be encouraged. I think a flat 10 per additional might be enough to dissuade people but the 5/15/30/50/75 as opposed to 10/20/30/40/50 is an interesting idea. I think either is a distinct possibility. But yes one of those two systems should be implemented.

Demonic Ferret wrote: EDIT: I just looked at High Magic. Enemy WP needs to have some effect on the anti-casting spells, or high elf wizards basically win against any other caster, regardless of their stats. Also holy SHIT Khaine's Fury is good.

Don't worry about High Magic, Dark Magic, or Necromancy. None of those have made the revamp yet. They are on my long list of things to do. I just wanted them up so people had some idea what they might be getting themselves into. I'll go tweak a couple of the spells now.

Also I won't be making any major overhauls until after the Beta adventure is over.

You might want to look at percentage of maximum health based detriments rather than just straight number of wounds taken detriments. That way you don't penalize a mage who decided to have a lot of wounds.

While I agree in principle, I don't think it would be penalizing a mage who took lots of wounds because the mage who didn't would be dead. In addition this was intended in the revamp to add a scaling effect to the casting rolls. Higher level mages have more wounds and therefor are more likely to take more damage from difficult opponents. Lastly the wound penalty isn't really all that strong. You have to take a lot of damage for it to be noticeable and this will be easily offset by investments in Wp. In addition I think its a strong fit for the lore but I'm open to other suggestions.

It also opens up new ways to encourage melee casting for Tzeentch wizards, as we discussed... maybe a passive to cut the wound penalty in half or something?